Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: This is the owlcast, the official podcast of ACS Athens.
Listen to the exciting story of the american community schools of Athens.
Check out what drives all the members of our international community of learners as we create the education of the future.
Here's John Papadakis.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: Welcome to Owlcast. Every week we talk with members of our community and other distinguished guests as we explore the cutting edge ideas and transformative practices shaping the future of education.
Some years ago, I was looking into resources and tools for managing the wealth of knowledge developed and created in a school. This treasure trove for humanity needs to be accessible, easily transferable, and properly managed to benefit every learner of every age. During this research, I stumbled across an organization in California that studies and promotes just this. Today, we're excited to have an incredibly inspiring guest joining us, Doctor Lisa Petrides. Lisa is a founder of the Institute for the Study of Knowledge Management in education, or IsKMI, and she brings a wealth of experience and insight into how knowledge management can revolutionize teaching and learning. Iskmi is an independent education nonprofit based in California whose mission is to make learning and knowledge sharing more participatory, equitable and open. It believes that developing equitable and inclusive learning environments will contribute to creating a more just society.
In today's episode with Doctor Petridis, we discuss fascinating topics including the continuous learning model and the ethos of education. We explore how information sense making, knowledge sharing, and collaboration can create a dynamic and engaging educational environment. Lisa shares her personal journey, including the bold decision to live a dream job to pursue her passion. We discuss what it means to be entrepreneurial in academia and how to turn field research and knowledge into into actionable insights that bridge the gap between research and practice. One of the most intriguing parts of Lisas story is her early experience of being sent to the principal's office for collaborating with a fellow student. This incident sparked a mindset that would later influence her career, leading her to champion open source knowledge sharing as a means to develop better access and equity in education. We also talk about the Dika model, data information, knowledge action, and how organizing data and metadata can help bring sense to educational systems and drive meaningful action. Lisa sheds light on managing and transferring knowledge within K twelve school environments and how analyzing failure can be a key to learning and growth. Furthermore, we explore the human right of open access to education, the significance of UNESCO's recommendation for open educational resources, and the impact of open education as a movement. Lisa also discusses with us the benefits of open knowledge management in higher education, particularly in Greece, and the importance of developing media literacy skills among students in today's changing media landscape. Join us as we embark on this enlightening conversation with Lisa Petrides, uncovering the transformative power of knowledge management in education and its potential to foster a more equitable and effective learning environment.
Welcome to the owlcast. This is not your first visit in our school, correct?
[00:04:12] Speaker C: That's correct. I was here maybe five years ago, before the pandemic.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: Oh, was it before the pandemic?
[00:04:17] Speaker C: I had hoped to come back sooner.
[00:04:19] Speaker B: Okay, well, good thing that you came to record this. You're coming from California, right?
[00:04:25] Speaker C: Yes, from San Francisco, California.
[00:04:27] Speaker B: Okay. What brought you here in the first place? What is our connection?
[00:04:32] Speaker C: Our connection is manifold, I believe. I guess what's very important to me is my greek heritage. I'm greek american. My grandparents both came from Greece, and I have, through the years come to Greece not only to visit family, but also because my work with my organization has been international and we've done a lot of work in the EU. And luckily we've had some terrific greek partners over time. So I've had the opportunity to come and go at least a couple times a year.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: So let's talk about your organization. You're heading. You're the founder of the Institute for the Study of Knowledge Management in education, or did you say Iskmi?
[00:05:14] Speaker C: We say Iskmi for short. Absolutely.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: So what is the need that guided you to found this organization 20 years ago?
[00:05:22] Speaker C: Over 20 years ago now, I was a college professor at Columbia University Teachers College, and I was teaching students, both in the k twelve, as well as the high higher ed area, about data and information systems and how we bring a continuous learning model and ethos into education. What happens with information sense making, knowledge sharing, knowledge collaboration. And this is the kind of work in the courses that I were teaching. And after I had been there for some time, I realized there was such an opportunity to do this work in a very applied way on the ground. And that's what led me to actually leave a very good job in academia. But I wanted to be much more applied in what I did and to be able to create an institution that could support this work.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: So there must have been a moment in your career where you said, you know, that's it. I think that I need to do something about this. Can you locate that moment or that project or that day? I mean, for you to leave academia, it's something not that usual. Correct?
[00:06:30] Speaker C: Very true, very true. In fact, in some ways, I had what I thought was my dream job. It's a job I had aspired to for many years, worked hard for my PhD, and got a terrific job, and loved being in New York City.
It's interesting, in retrospect to see, is there one pivotal moment, or is it there a series of things over time that you only can see looking back? You can't see at the moment? I think in the moment, what it was is there was a lot of technology, a lot of information technology, library science. Many of these things were starting to take hold in education. It was a very exciting time, and I think, for me, in a much more traditional research university on the ground, what's current? Working with the latest technology, thinking about how these things could be applied wasn't really part of the curriculum there. So I think I just. Somebody once told me that I was more entrepreneurial than the average academic, and maybe that was true, but I think I just really had such a strong desire to do something in action, to turn this research and knowledge that we were gaining about this field into action and really make an impact on the field. So I don't know if it's one pivotal moment or if it's just series over time. I've always been a person who has kind of been an ambassador or stood on that line between research and practice. And so to me, starting this institute was really a great opportunity to do that.
[00:08:04] Speaker B: Well. In the age of unlimited and often uncontrollable information, what do you think is the necessity for open and participatory knowledge?
[00:08:16] Speaker C: I think that I was born with the open gene.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: The open source gene?
[00:08:21] Speaker C: The open source gene. I think I was just born that way. Maybe it's because I was the younger sister and I had an older brother who never wanted to share with me, and I thought this was important. I don't know.
This might go back that far.
I also can remember there's a funny story.
I was maybe in second or third grade, and back then, this will sound ancient to anybody who was born in the last 20 years to do vocabulary words. We were given a little box with letters, and the teacher would write the word on the board, and we had to make the board with the letters. So you had to go through your box, find the letters, and make the word on your desk. And I remember I got this only time I think I was ever sent to the principal's office when I was in school, because this girl behind me, Karen Pierce, she said, do you have any t's? And I said, yeah, I have a t. And I went and I gave her a t, and then somebody else said, I don't have any versus do you have a v? And I looked because my work was all done on my desk and I was just waiting. And I wasn't spelling the words for them, but they needed a letter and they couldn't find it. And, well, I was cheating and I was, you know, I was sharing, I was collaborating. I wasn't doing their work for them. And of course, I felt it was very unjust at the time. And, you know, tried to tell my mother why I was sent to the principal's office and all I.
[00:09:37] Speaker B: What did the principal say?
[00:09:38] Speaker C: I'm curious, you know, I don't really remember. I think they said something like, you should really just do your own work in class and not, but you didn't.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: Do someone else's work. You just gave.
[00:09:47] Speaker C: That was my case. That was my case. That was my case. And it's funny, it was many, many years later as we were working in the space of open education, which I'll talk a little bit more about that. I really thought about that and thought, I just think I was wired this way that, and again, it's not about how do we help somebody, it's how do we collaborate with somebody to make something better than we could do ourselves. So this idea of the sharing of information and knowledge is kind of the basis of my work. I would say maybe intellectually or academically, really very much a library science or an information science kind of perspective. And I would say now, almost 20 years ago, they're building really on the open source software movement. There was this idea, how do we, in fact, create, what would it look like if we applied those open source principles to education? And that includes educational resources, data, right, curriculum, everything. What does it look like? How does it give it more access? How does it become more inclusive for everybody? And access and equity are the main tenants of the mission of my organization. It's really our north star. And so open just really seemed, and open education just seemed that it was such common sense in a way.
How we get there is anything but easy because there are many structures in place that don't support that of open. And how we share and how we collaborate, how we learn from each other, I think, is essential. And really, education systems, by and large, are not structured that way. Some are. But if you look just traditionally, that isn't the mode of education that we've been using for hundreds of years, both here and in other places as well. When I say here, I mean in the US, but in Europe as well. So I think it really is about transforming teaching and learning at its core and using this idea of open and knowledge sharing and collaboration that get us there.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: We're going to talk more about this particular mentality of sharing knowledge. And to tell you the truth, the first thing that comes to my mind when I started working with knowledge sharing was when I was working for a technology company. And we're trying to share what all the different developers are trying to do. And at some point there is, there's no point of having a silo. I mean, just share your code, you know. And then Wikipedia came to be and everybody was like, how come people who are not getting paid, okay, created this thing out of their desire to share what they know? Now someone else is going to come and say, oh, that's not correct, but you have the right to go and correct it. So you see this ecosystem of sharing knowledge taking shape all the way back in the early two thousands, I think.
[00:12:41] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: So I definitely agree with what you're saying, but what I'm mostly interested through the title of your organization is how do you define knowledge in your organization? How does IsKmi define knowledge? Are we talking about just explicit knowledge? Are we talking about tacit knowledge, a combination of the two? Or is there something else? I mean, the idea is that I'm sure, especially in education, knowledge is shared and create it every day. Teachers do that every day in the classroom. So what is the key element behind the management of this knowledge?
[00:13:18] Speaker C: Yes, and in some ways people have critiqued the word management in that way. It was a term that was used, knowledge management a lot more in business 20 plus years ago, less used in education. I think the most important, and let me tell you about the model that we use to talk about what knowledge management means. What it really means is it's managing a process and we call it the Dika model. So data, information, knowledge, action. So you start off with data, which is numbers. It's something quite factual, concrete, concrete. It's very concrete. And as you start to put, say, metadata or filters, data about the data categorized, then we have information. We start to know something about this data where if you just have a bunch of numbers, what does that really mean? You have to make, put some kind of structure around it. That's really the information piece. Knowledge is where you bring in the sense making. So you look at this and you say, what does that mean? What does this mean in that context? Okay. And I can give you many examples from education, from schools about how you and I can be looking at the same set of data and have very different kind of understandings of what that data means. And I don't just mean different interpretations, but you see the data and you say, well, no, this is really true. This is what's happening at this moment in time. But how we understand it, how we explain it, how we think we might take an action. So this is the action part to actually do something, to make a change. This is what makes the DeCa model work. And so I think of the DeCA model. It's more than just a cycle. It's kind of a spiral up, because the more you evolve, it evolves. You go from data to information to knowledge. You put it into action, you learn, you find new data because you think of looking at something differently than the way we're looking and so on and so on and so on. So that's really, to me, I know that doesn't sound like managing knowledge, but that's why I try to loosely say it's the management of the process of how we build knowledge, how we share knowledge and how we put it into action.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: You put a framework around it so people do not get lost in the whole process.
[00:15:35] Speaker A: You are listening to the owlcast, the official podcast of ACS Athens.
[00:15:47] Speaker B: What's the specific element that applies to education?
How do you see that?
[00:15:53] Speaker C: Perhaps you're looking for an example.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: If you have an example, yes, because for me, as I said before, knowledge management goes all the way to all organizations. I know that the Olympics have a knowledge management system to transfer the knowledge from one organization to the next organization to the next organization. And they don't reinvent the wheel every time. Now you have teachers who are coming to schools. In our situation, K twelve schools, we see teachers who stay for 2345 years, and then we have teachers who stay for a year or even less, and they're expected to come to a system of knowledge, take it, apply it, and then transfer it in some way. So, you know, after the electronic transformation of the schools, where everything is available online and offline, it seems a little bit easier. But the mentality of the teacher is not easy to break. This is my material. I'm teaching this material. How can I pass the knowledge that I got from the classroom, from my students, from my colleagues, to the next person who's going to teach math or science or literature or art?
That is what I'm trying to understand.
[00:17:08] Speaker C: There's about ten really interesting issues in that example there. If, in fact, we trained as educators, our work was to train people how to learn, to learn how to have curiosity, how to take something we've done, understand it, maybe fail at it, and then how to improve it. I think failure is a huge part of this whole learning process. It's a key process and it's something that is shunned. The last thing you want to say.
[00:17:40] Speaker B: You need to find a different word.
[00:17:42] Speaker C: Maybe that's it. There's whole companies that are about failure analysis.
You're not supposed to say those words in education. And you're right, I think we need a better word than that. But if we really trained, if our education systems were well equipped to do this kind of educating in this way, even the teachers, the young teachers that are coming to teach would already have this mindset. Now, you and I know we're veterans in this field. We've been around for some decades. We know that isn't the case. In fact, I think that, let's just say teaching is hard, right?
[00:18:22] Speaker B: It's one of the hardest jobs.
[00:18:24] Speaker C: I think it really is. No matter what level you're teaching at, if you're really trying to understand who these students are, how are they learning, what are their individual needs? Needs, what is the context of today, which may be different than the context of ten or 20 or 30 years.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: Ago and not knowing what's going to happen in the future?
[00:18:41] Speaker C: Ten and 2030 years in the future. Absolutely. And I think we're faced with that more than ever. So this idea that or this ethos of how you can be open to that and how you can, you know, there's the saying of like, you don't know what you don't know. How do we create a system that can in fact support that? So when we think very specifically, let's take educational resources, for example.
Sometimes when we work with educators, they say, well, these are my resources. I'm the only one who understands them and these are my students. And, you know, they want to keep them for themselves.
[00:19:15] Speaker B: And there's the question of rights.
[00:19:17] Speaker C: That's another question. Can we talk about that separately?
Because I won't answer the first question about here.
[00:19:24] Speaker B: No, no, no, stay where you are. I don't want to derail you.
[00:19:28] Speaker C: What we find is when teachers are put in the situation where they say they're involved in an open education like professional development workshop, they can often come very resistant because they come with that mindset. What they immediately see, and I think this is what drives, that drives people to the teaching profession, is that in fact, if they have an idea and then somebody takes that and builds on it, they all of a sudden see something new about that idea. We take the silo out of that teaching piece, and I think 99% of educators we've worked with at the k twelve or the higher ed level, when they have that little aha. Moment when they understand how their work, in fact, is better and they have a new understanding and they can build on their work differently, they absolutely take to it. They love it. It really enriches their teaching, makes them more confident, makes them, I think, be better teachers because they have a different understanding of their students as they work. We see this over and over again. I think getting over that hurdle sometimes, especially in more traditional environments, can be very difficult.
You talked about rights. You know, I think that education is a human right and that everybody should have access to education.
And whether your school system or ministry of education is set up with what those rights are, every government is different. Every, you know, in the US, we have 50 states who all have their different rules about education, their own structure for how education is running. It almost doesn't matter who technically owns or who's the copyright owner of it. It's really what you can do with it. And I think that when we make, especially education resources, a commercial endeavor, we lose all of our rights there at that point, because now some corporation takes it, they use it, they put it in a textbook, they charge for it, they decide who can have it and who can't based on the cost.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Or they develop a product or a process out of it on something that has been created through many different years of teaching or research and often with teachers.
[00:21:42] Speaker C: And if you just take, I take the case in the US is that our tax dollars, our public tax dollars pay for teaching, to pay for public education. And so this really means that education is a public good. And therefore, again, forget ownership for a moment. Anybody who is creating something in education for our students that is a public good, it's like water, it's like roads, it's like the air we breathe. These things should be, be the rights of people.
[00:22:09] Speaker B: That is a very good perspective. The tax dollars thing is something that is unique in all countries, more so in the United States, where the tax dollars, the property taxes, fund education in most states, I think. I mean, I don't know if there is a state that doesn't. In Greece is a little bit different. But again, the idea of having a public good for the public good, the provision of education, free education, or the material for that education to be public, that makes a big difference in how we understand education. So going to a different angle here, you're a member of UNESCO's advisory group for open educational resources.
What is the activity, what is the significance of the activity of this body?
[00:22:58] Speaker C: That is some of the most exciting work, I think, going on in education, I can say in the world right now. From my perspective, UNESCO, back in, in 2019, the member states of UNESCO passed a recommendation on OER for all their member states, which basically makes the case in point around open education and open educational resources from a sustainability perspective, from an equity perspective, it was passed. So this is like, if you are a member state of UNESCO, this is what you have committed to follow. So this is what UNESCO did. It was really monumental. Not a lot of recommendations are made like this by the UNESCO body.
And what happens now is this group is working with governments in other countries, whether it's giving them examples of what's being done in other countries, sharing different kinds of policies that have been made, sharing sustainability models, always with an eye around equity, around gender. There's a lot of very important tenants of the work of UNESCO that does this work. So it's really bringing together a global movement, a global field around open education. And we can see that the curriculum that people are working on, let's just say in Kenya, and how that can be applied to what's happening in Germany and how that can be applied to students who are studying in Michigan. Let's face it, I think probably the most dire need in our globe today is how we come together to solve these seemingly intractable problems. And I am one who certainly believes that the only way we're gonna do that is together, by the open sharing of knowledge, by the collaboration from one country to the next. I mean, I'll just give an example. The fact that the COVID vaccine isn't openly available and that all these companies have patents on it and get to decide who gets it and doesn't, to me, is criminal. That's criminal action. So if we have this open ethos, we would understand that science, the things that make humanity better, whether they're around health or environment, whatever these issues are, is the only way we're going to solve them, is if we do it in this way. And I think the very basis, the very first step of how we learn is education. So the fact that UNESCO has done this in this area of education is the tenet. It is the basis by which all of this is built and how we, in fact, live in our world today together.
[00:25:39] Speaker B: Yeah. One of the sdgs of the UN, the sustainable development goals, is about education. How does that particular body of UNESCO tie in with.
[00:25:50] Speaker C: I should have said that it's completely tied in. That is the basic tenant. Yes.
[00:25:55] Speaker B: So you mentioned about the different entities or the governmental entities, the different ministries. Your work has included consultations with or direct work with governmental entities on education, like ministries and school districts. I assume that you have heard about the changing landscape of the higher education in Greece with a law that non governmental and non profit universities. It was passed recently in the parliament. In your perspective, how can knowledge management and the other best practices around education benefit higher education through this new environment?
[00:26:32] Speaker C: I think the legislation is exciting and I think its implementation is going to be the hardest part of it.
I dont want to say the rules and the regulations, but what surrounds that and how that is allowed to move forward I think is the key.
That in fact there are other entities who are not governmental involved in education. Seems to me to be a very positive step.
If in fact we still have this open education ethos, what we don't want to do is recreate a system where some people have access to the best education and other people don't. We're trying to create a system where there's more opportunity, where there is increased knowledge, where we're better at what we do. And I think when you're all within just a government environment, you don't necessarily get the benefit of some of those external sort of contributions to the work. If what we end up having is a sense where we have high competition, think about cost. Do we have the siloing of knowledge? You talked about the silos. If the system recreates that or strengthens that, that's not going to be a positive change.
[00:27:46] Speaker B: It's not a positive change.
[00:27:47] Speaker C: But I think that the introduction of an opportunity where this kind of knowledge can be shared across these levels is in fact very positive.
[00:27:57] Speaker B: Here at ACS, we just concluded the first international media literacy festival, and that brought together experts on the news, on careers, entertainment in our quest to define the parameters of media literacy in education, especially in the younger ages. In your opinion, how can best practices in knowledge management affect the critical thinking skills? Students need to be media literate if we can connect these too.
[00:28:28] Speaker C: Congratulations, by the way. What an amazing undertaking to have done that. And I imagine that there was a lot of best practice shared in that kind of environment and will be shared. And will be shared and from other.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: Countries, or we had participation from other countries.
We had invited over 50 schools from the Mediterranean to participate in the online sessions of also, but also in the competition that we organized.
[00:28:56] Speaker C: So I think media literacy, we're understanding it now that we used to think of media as just something that the newscasters did. Right. And of course, with social media and everything like this now, we certainly understand its impact is many to many, right. It's no longer the one to many model of what journalism and news was about before. And so again, when we think about critical thinking and we think about if you try to this DeCa model, the data, information, knowledge, action, and this continuous improvement model, if you have built that into those kinds of programs, you're going to see that media literacy, again, is not the silo, but it's about how we communicate now to each other. I mean, that's really the crux of it, how we pass information onto each other, how we build on each other's knowledge. That to me is what media literacy is about today. And that might not be a formal sort of educational definition of media literacy, but that, in fact is its promise.
[00:29:59] Speaker B: I think it's definitely included. It's definitely included because if you're not, if you're media literate, at least you know how information is shared and how.
[00:30:07] Speaker C: It'S created and who's created it and who's evaluating and who's evaluating it. Those are the things that we need to know about it.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: Excellent. Excellent. That's a great perspective.
My last question. You have been the president of the board of trustees in San Mateo County Community College District in California. Next year, California will join the ranks of only a handful of us states in implementing media literacy education for students. This step is deemed crucial by experts, given the current widespread distrust in the media and the novel hurdles posed by emerging technologies in discerning false information. A state bill signed into law this fall mandates public schools to instruct media literacy, a set of skills that includes recognizing falsified data, identifying fake news, and generate responsible Internet content. We're talking about public schools of primary and secondary education here. What kind of change? Introducing these media literacy education aspects affect college students because we're talking about the public schools at the k twelve level and the higher education level. What are the changes that you feel? What do you feel this new mandate is going to bring?
[00:31:25] Speaker C: My work with the community colleges is just some of the most satisfying and amazing work that I've had the opportunity to participate in in the last 30 years. I should tell you that that position that I hold as a trustee on the board is an elected official. So I have to respond to the voters in this as most board districts, public boards. So it's important in California has an amazing, robust community college system, we have 116 community colleges throughout the state. Those are essentially two year schools, although some of them now are offering some four year degrees within the high need.
[00:32:05] Speaker B: Areas we're talking about associate degrees.
[00:32:06] Speaker C: Offer associate degrees, yes, associate degrees. And in the community colleges, for some, it is first generation students to go to college. It's their opportunity to get to the four year colleges because they can transfer in. For others, it's to leave with an associate's degree in some particular area. There's a lot of medical professions and things like that that need those associate's degrees. And in other cases it's more like career and technical education. So they're not going to necessarily go on, but they're going to be in the trades or in other kinds of really important professions. So it really supports community. It supports the larger kind of context of what community really means in that case.
So that's the work of the community colleges. When you talk about this work that's going to be happening on the k twelve side, I mean, I think we can agree certainly in the US, and we're not in the best situation in the US these days in terms of our falsified information and our fake news.
And I certainly think that a huge component of that is what happens in our k twelve education systems. So ostensibly, we should be graduating students out of these institutions with a better sense of how you understand that, how you identify that. Not so different than what we were talking about, knowledge management and continuous improvement. Right. But we're doing it at a much more lay, at a much more basic kind of human level of what that means. What I think that means for higher education is we're going to have students arriving at higher education already with some of that understanding. Because I think now what happens both in the community college and four year institutions is students get there and we do a lot of that kind of critical thinking. We have to do all of that and start there, which is almost, I don't want to say too late, but by then, how somebody thinks, how somebody learns those kinds of practices are already very much part of who they are. And they kind of get built into their DNA, their intellectual, emotional DNA in that way. So I think it's going to be very, it's going to be a huge improvement. And you know, I want to say in some ways, did we expect this? You know, this was also kind of a very unexpected sort of phenomenon in this way brought on by technology that is very corporate, that is thinking about bottom line, that is thinking about stockholders. There was nothing about what it means, for example, to be educating, to be human. Right? We have two different systems here. We have a system of profit and ingenuity and invention. Right? I'm going to say that there's a lot of great, great things that are happening around those technology, but yet at the cost or at the opposite side is how is that happening for whom and how is it impacting us? And those things have been very diverged in the US. So this is maybe some opportunity to begin to address it where it starts.
[00:35:12] Speaker B: Well, the thing for me at least is that although there are many shortcomings in the system, in the media system, in the US at least, you see that there is the recognition of this shortcoming and the idea of how do we innovate on some fields like media literacy, which for me especially, it's fundamental in how you develop the minds of young people. So when they go into their late teens or early adulthood, they know how to see the world in a different eye and having knowledge management skills and having critical thinking skills. This at least gives some hope to what we're going to see in the next 1015 20.
And let's hope that that example of California is going to bleed in to the rest of the country and to the world, because again, don't forget that in the last, I think, five years I've seen at least two foundations in the States talking about media literacy and their work is profound. And I'm really anxious to see how is that going to develop. Doctor Lisa Petridis, thank you so much for being with, with us, for stopping by and do this overdue.
[00:36:26] Speaker C: Thank you very much. It's an absolute delight to be here.
[00:36:30] Speaker B: Thank you so much.
[00:36:33] Speaker A: You are listening to the owlcast, the official podcast of ACS Athens. Make sure you subscribe to the Owlcast on Google Podcast, Spotify and Apple Podcasts. This has been a production of the ACS Athens Media studio.
