Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: This is the owlcast, the official podcast of ACS Athens.
Listen to the exciting story of the american community schools of Athens.
Check out what drives all the members of our international community of learners as we create the education of the future.
Here's John Papadakis.
[00:00:45] Speaker B: Welcome to the Outcast. Today's episode is a little different, a little more serious, a little more somber, actually, not just a little. Before we continue, here's a fair warning for those of you listening with your children. The topic today might be disturbing for younger audiences as it contains accounts of violence against minors and women trafficking and human suffering. So parental discretion is strongly advised.
Our guest today is a parent of our school who is an attorney who handles cases of domestic violence against minors, persons with special needs, victims of trafficking, refugees, and abused and neglected women and children. Elena Glegle is working with children sheltered in several governmental and non governmental organizations, representing them in court, working with psychologists and social service teams, as well as with the children themselves. She has done pro bono work for the DA's Office of Minors in Athens, the International Organization for Migration, and several ngos such as the European Women against Domestic Violence and the Research and Support center for Victims of Maltreatment and social exclusion. Ms. Glecle has traveled extensively to various countries to work with attorneys in support of victims of trafficking, Roma people and minors in need. She's been involved in drafting new legislation about the status of refugees and the new legislation about foreign citizens in Greece.
[00:02:14] Speaker C: Elena Glegle was nominated in 2005 for.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: The Transparency International Integrity Awards and for the Yale World's Fellows program in 2006.
Today we're also joined by Lydia's Cabavavilla, our alumni engagement and development officer, who introduced us to Elena Glegle, saying that what she has to say is mind changing and eye opening. She couldn't be closer to the truth. And truth in this case is quite unsparing.
[00:02:51] Speaker C: Your journey as a family law specialist has been marked by a strong focus on cases involving domestic violence against minors.
Can you share a pivotal moment or a case that fueled your commitment to advocating for the rights of abused and neglected women and children?
[00:03:12] Speaker D: Yes. First of all, I wanted to tell you that when I went to the law school, I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do. But since I remember myself, I knew very well that I wanted to help the people that were in need. So yes, law school, it was a door that helped me, but have already developed the idea of justice in my childhood, since I was very young. So I thought that helping the other, it's something I need to do, and I have the obligation to do so.
Helping the minors and the neglected children and women. What leads me there, it was something by accident. I didn't know where to go. I was very lucky because I met during by accident again, a mentor. It was a prosecutor, Ada and showed me exactly what it is these neglected children, abused children and people in need look like. So from the moment I went there, my steps were in this stage and I met this woman I knew the cruel way of all these minors and women. I really don't remember what is the worst of all. But what I can tell you is they have something in common. They need to be helped. So this is something I think that I served. It is every minor I have seen in the shelter, every woman I have seen in need, with no clothes, with no help, with no relatives, with no hope. I thought every time that this is the worst case I have ever made. And then again, the other and the other. And I said that it's not the case. It's the feeling they feel. It's not how hard they have to strangle. It's how we can help them to go during this strangle. To be not alone and to be in real help sometimes. I have met a minor who was raped by his own father. And the moment I went in the room and I had to tell him that his father had a right of visitation, this minor ran into the arms of his father, who raped him. And then he just looked at me with his eyes. And I think that this moment, the hardest moment I have ever lived in my own life. Until then, for this particular case, you.
[00:05:37] Speaker C: Were the attorney of the kid?
[00:05:40] Speaker D: Of the kid, yes, the kid. When I realized that there are so many victims of domestic violence, abuse, children and women. And I said, okay, who is going to represent them? The woman I know. But the kids, who is going to represent them? If we know that the parents are the ones who abuse them or neglect them. So they said in Greece, according to the greek law, it's the DA of the minors. But then the DA has not a voice. In Germany, for instance, the kid has his own lawyer. By the law, it's the lawyer of the mother, the lawyer of the father and the lawyer of the kid we don't have here in Greece. So I said, okay, we must protect them. And we said, okay, we'll need some lawyers pro bono, who don't take money. And you are going to represent. To be the DA's voice, to represent the kids. The victim. The kid as a victim. So I have made a lot of trials representing the kid as assistants of the DA. And sometimes the DA couldn't be in the courtroom. So, yes, I only represent victims. Even somebody I understand that it's not the one who did the crime. I refuse to represent him. Not because I don't believe him or not because I accuse. The other lawyers today do that, but because if somebody have heard so many screams, so many people screaming for help, I think not only me, all the people that were involved and were a lot of lawyers, I think that they cannot represent the other side.
[00:07:04] Speaker C: But you need to have a really strong stomach for these cases. And I was wondering, do you remember your first case?
[00:07:12] Speaker D: Yes, I do. When we are involved in this case, it's less painful that if you look.
[00:07:18] Speaker C: It outside from the outside.
[00:07:20] Speaker D: Yes, it's different. I remember the first case. Of course I do. Because I have to tell you that although I have this strong desire to represent the people in need, the law school didn't help me to make the right choice and said, okay, I want to have family law, I want to go to. And said, there's no such a thing. The teachers of mine, they said the truth. So I specialized in commercial law, totally different. But I think that God and life guides you sometimes where you have to be. And I was in a very good office, and they said, okay, elena, you like family law? And we have a problem. A very good client of us, he's separated and he has a kid with special needs. But today his doctor called and said that this kid has no special needs. This kid is neglected and abused by his own mother. And in order to leave her alone, she decided to take away the kid to a special shelter. And do you want to go and check out what is going on? Of course. And then I went, and this case went very well. The doctor helped me very much as a witness. We took the kid away, and the kid was very well away from this environment. I remember that this first case gave me the chance to change my career and change my life. Because as I went to this DA's office and speak with herself, I saw many, many people waiting outside. Roma people, refugees, immigrants, neglected children. I said, what are they doing here? And then this woman said, what do you think that life is in the very rich, good offices? And I felt very bad. And I said, no, can I help? But it's pro bono, and you have to work the other hours, not during the office hour, and said, okay, thank you. And this was the first time she opened the door of what I really wanted to do. And then one came after the other, and I was with Nigetti children, and then an NGO contacted me with european women in need. And then I spoke to another mentor I had. He was the director of the international Immigration of Greece. And he told me, okay, you can help. You can help the women in need, but they are refugees and they are immigrants. And then I took cases like that, and I was very lucky because they called me from the embassy of the United States and they told me, okay, do you want to be specialized in the United States about what we do? I said, you have to go to United States. And thank God I accepted.
[00:10:11] Speaker C: So you saw the difference in the approach in the two countries, correct. I mean, in the states, you have the DCFs, which can come in your house and in a sense, take the children away from you if you're an abusive parent. In Greece, the framework, the legal framework is a little bit different.
[00:10:27] Speaker D: Even we have the idea of the same procedure in practice, they don't do that because the worst case scenario is to be abused psychological and in other ways that you, me, you cannot see. For my opinion, it's not working well in Greece, I saw the difference in the United States because a lot of people who had the dreams or the desire I had to work, it's common in the United States, and they have a network. I don't mean that the Americans are more sensitive than Greeks, no way. But they have the way the schedule, the program. And you want to help you, please be my guest.
[00:11:07] Speaker C: There's a structure in support program.
[00:11:10] Speaker D: This is totally different. I think this is the beginning of the progress.
[00:11:14] Speaker C: Well, you mentioned about pro bono work, and this is something that I believe is one of the greatest things that the legal profession can do in supporting people who cannot represent themselves or cannot afford, or they are in a position where they don't understand how to support themselves. You said that your pro bono work extends to several organizations, including the DA's office of minors. And can you elaborate on a specific pro bono case that left a lasting impact on you? How did it contribute to your advocacy?
[00:11:50] Speaker D: Oh, great. I think that if I couldn't have taken this pro bono work, I wouldn't be the person I am today. The best teachers I ever had is these victims, these persons. I knew exactly how practicing law has a value, I think, that we can offer. It's not necessarily be paid what we do, but in fact, I am a better lawyer, I'm a better person that I know exactly how I can serve the others. I think that is the purpose of life. What I have lost. I have to tell you the truth. Mr. Papadakis is joy. I don't have the ability to be happy as I would be if I have never chosen this way.
[00:12:33] Speaker C: You don't know what it means. Ignorance is bliss anymore. The rest of us do.
Do you remember a specific case that you did pro bono that was really impactful?
[00:12:45] Speaker D: Yes, it was the first victim of trafficking I represent according to the new legislation then in 2004, I think I have just came back from United States. And then I have been taught by a DA there what is trafficking, because I didn't know what it is. And it was my last day in New York City and they told me, what do you want to do before you go to Greece? And I said, okay, go to a DA's office because I have seen a lot of films and I wanted to go, how's the DA? How's the police? And I said, okay, now I will have fun. And when I was there, I told him, what are you doing? And they said, okay, we're doing cases about trafficking. And I said, what is this? And he told me, okay, take these books you have to read. But living here after 4 hours, he stayed more after the schedule. Don't ever forget, Elena, how the victim of trafficking will feel. It's a totally different status and feelings if you ever represent a victim of trafficking in your life. And I said, I will never represent a victim of trafficking in my life because I'm not do criminal law. One year later they called me a friend of mine. Now he's a minister. I didn't know him then by accident. I was in a conference and I said, oh, what are you doing? You're changing the legislation. You're doing all wrong because you don't care about the victims afterwards. Okay, can you make the changes until ten in the evening? I have the changes in my office and said, okay. And I copy what the Americans have done, but this DA has told me. And I said, okay, you take that. And he didn't change a thing. And he put exactly the same in the new legislation for Greece. And then six months later they called me and said, elena, greece will have a victim of trafficking. You have to represent her. And said, no, I can't. It's the first case, it's new legislation. I'm never going to represent this girl. There are so many other lawyers better than me and specialized and said, because you feel the pain better. We know exactly why you want to serve law.
[00:14:51] Speaker C: They saw an empathy in you.
[00:14:53] Speaker D: Yes, you're going to lose. But don't take it personal. We expect it. And I said, okay, I have to meet the girl. So I traveled to the shelter in Ioanina because the trial was in Thessaloniki. And I met once the girl and I talked with her. And then I remember what da told me in the United States. And the things were good. It was the first convention according to the greek law. And I remember exactly how she felt. And that was the reason why I think I represent her very well. Because I knew how I had to make the others understand that the violence have many faces. It doesn't mean that when we don't speak and when we are not scream, we are not in pain. Pain, unfortunately, can hide very well. And I think this is the most important case I have ever had. Because it was the first, because I was unprepared and because after that all the doors were open to Europe for me, I mean, to go to shelters to help people, to be in cocktail with other victims and do what I've ever wanted to do. This is the most important.
[00:16:00] Speaker C: What is also important is that to understand that sometimes pain is not felt during the ordeal. It comes afterwards.
[00:16:08] Speaker D: Oh, yes.
[00:16:14] Speaker A: You are listening to the owlcast, the official podcast of ACs Athens.
[00:16:28] Speaker C: Today we're talking with attorney Elena Glegle.
[00:16:31] Speaker B: Who has been involved in litigation supporting minors victimized by domestic violence, persons with special needs, victims of trafficking, refugees, and abused and neglected women and children. As we said in the beginning, this is a very sensitive and sometimes disturbing topic and parental discretion is strongly advised.
[00:16:58] Speaker C: One of my questions for you was about your involvement in the legislative procedures. And my question is, what changes or improvements do you hope to see in the landscape, in the legal landscape regarding refugee rights, regarding children rights? And how can these changes impact the lives of those that are seeking refuge in Greece?
[00:17:23] Speaker D: This is a very big issue. Can talk. Mr. Papatikis, it's very important to tell you that unfortunately, I haven't seen the. It's my personal opinion. Of course I haven't seen the progress I expect it to have after 25 years. When I first was involved in all this, I think Greece was well prepared then. They have resources, economical. I mean, there were many shelters, the professional. The law is okay. Of course we can be in progress. My point is, in practice, this is a problem.
[00:17:58] Speaker C: The implementation of the law.
[00:17:59] Speaker D: Yes, because we take the traffickers, we go them to jail. I don't care. 25 years. 25 years. This is a legislation in Greece. It's another issue. I'm not going to judge it. Then what are you going to do? With the victim? And of course there are shelters and of course we take care of it. Since when? Who can ever said what is the end of the pain? And who can say this girl is okay to return back? Who is the one who can tell? Two years, four years, 20 years?
[00:18:30] Speaker C: Who decides?
Who decides that time frame at this point? I mean, I assume that there are social workers out there working with these people. Is there a connection between the legal profession and the social work that is needed, especially for these cases?
[00:18:47] Speaker D: Look, there is a social service, of course they speak with them. They have make a lot of work and trying to find jobs. Now, I remember another case, the girl from Nigeria and Greece is a transit country for trafficking. It was a very unique case. I remember I had a call from a shelter I was supervising and I said, okay, Elena, we have a victim. It's in Joanina. She is a victim of trafficking and she wasn't raped. And I said, how he's a victim of sex trafficking, I mean, and wasn't raped. Look, she was brought from Nigeria to Thessaloniki and she tried to escape. And then she went to the police officer and the police, because they are specialized, they recognized that she must be a victim of trafficking. So said, I want to call back. What we need you from Athens is to give her a shelter for one night. Next morning she would be to Nigeria. And I said, okay, according to the procedure, I usually take notes, like a short interview. So I met the girl. There was night, what's your name? It was only 17. And I said, you're not raped. You are very lucky. You are going to go to your family. And she started to cry. And I said, why are you crying? Said, my father sent me here and he told me that I'm going to make something, an ecological operation. She wasn't well and only in Greece. They're good doctors. And I asked her, where are you going to return now? And I said, I cannot return to my home, okay. I said, not to return to your home, to another village. I didn't know it was a social servant. And said, I want to talk to you. And I said, what? You don't know the country she's coming from? The woman cannot give birth. They take them and they sell them. You must cancel the flight. And I called and I said, from the international organization of Eleanor. What are you talking about? 05:30 in the morning. She's not going to leave. She stays here. And then she was so lucky. I called the airport, we canceled the tickets. Anyway, this woman stayed. She stayed at the shelter for two years. But then she was very weak. She cannot learn Greek. She cannot speak Greek very well. She cannot find the work. Until now, I don't know what she's doing, but I feel that although we have followed the procedure and we have followed the rules, at the end we didn't give her the help that she needed to take, that we have the obligation to give, not that she needed to take. Of course they are shelters. Don't say that's nothing. Of course they are lawyers. Of course they are very good judges, shelters, social service. But at the end, what is next?
How can they imagine that ten years from now, I don't even want to keep any contact to this girl because I don't think I can stand the way she is now. Maybe she's okay. I don't know.
[00:21:43] Speaker C: These are very heavy topics.
[00:21:46] Speaker E: There's a lot of emotion. Who is supporting you through this?
Don't you have a support team?
[00:21:55] Speaker D: To tell you the truth, when I was young, I was crying every night. I wasn't stand the injustice. I want to speak to doctors to help me now. I think that I know everything I need to know, and I think that I do other things to be well, and I try to face it, to deal it as a professional, but it's not nobody. Don't believe anybody who says that. It's your job. Nobody can separate very well job from the personal life.
[00:22:27] Speaker C: And not everybody can be prepared for this kind of thing.
[00:22:32] Speaker D: No, absolutely.
[00:22:32] Speaker C: You cannot be prepared. I totally believe, and I think it has to do with the personality of the person. Whoever is doing this kind of work that you are doing cannot be trained. You have to leave it. And to tell you the truth, one of the things that I saw on.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: The information about you that are out.
[00:22:50] Speaker C: There is that you have been involved in leading in certain sectors and you were nominated for a fellows program, a world fellows program from Yale in 2006 for your leadership. And I guess my last question, what kind of leadership qualities a student or someone who is in our line of education should we try to instill in them going into this kind of profession and why? I'm telling you, I know people who want to do something like that. And their idea of helping the victims is to study criminal psychology. And they were asking me, they were saying, I want to go do this, should I do that, or should I go towards the legal framework? I don't know what to answer to them. So in your capacity, with all the things that you've seen, with all the qualities that someone in your line of work needs, to have. How can a school help students? First of all, understand where they are in their environment, but also when they want to help others who might need help. What is your opinion?
[00:24:03] Speaker D: You have already done that in acs. You know why? Because the first time I came here and Lydia asked me why you choose your son to be a student in ACS. And I said yesterday night, I understood that when I first came here, it was a solid logic, not by instigator only. I said, this is a nice school, because I saw that. Be responsible. I think that the values you have in this school, it is the answer for the students who wants to follow low school or low education. It's when you love responsibility. It's Kazakh, is what he said. He said you have to save the world. If you don't save the world, it's your fault. I mean, be prepared, be ready, be responsible. What does it mean, be responsible? Be responsible. It means not only to yourself, to the others. How can you be happy and have fun if the others are in pain? So by learning the goals of your school, the values, to understand why I am here in the school, only knowledge is nothing, desire is nothing. You have to be guided by somebody who knows how to guide you, to be responsive, to be respectful and to be ready. For what? For the challenges of life. If you can follow this path with your own character, with your passion, with your vision, but still, you can keep these values in mind. You must respect the diversity, everybody's equal, the freedom of expression. If you have all this, you are ready to serve justice, to serve law. Whatever you do, even if it's very small, you can deal it with a vision of a leader. You must respect it, you must love it, and the result will come. I'm very grateful that I have the chance to go to law school, because it's a wonderful door. This door opened the door of my heart. But there are many temptations. I think that if I didn't have my parents who supported me in Greece, financially, I mean, and I have their vision and they have the same values. Although my mother never worked and my father was specialized in economics issues, it's totally different. But still, I think that if he could lead a team of neglected children, abused women, trafficking, romance, it was my father. Although he didn't know anything but his spirit and his fire of his hurt, he found another way to help during his job. So if somebody wants to go to law school, I think. Don't think about it, go for it.
[00:26:42] Speaker C: It doesn't matter what kind of law, though.
[00:26:43] Speaker D: No yes, it does.
[00:26:45] Speaker C: You started differently.
[00:26:46] Speaker D: Commercial law, where you are.
Maybe you understand the values that you have been taught in your school. In law school is in practice. I don't know if everybody will follow them, but they will understand exactly what it means. Justice, what it meant to be fair.
Not to help the others, to punish the others. To expect something from the community and from the state. You're living from your country.
[00:27:16] Speaker C: I think, Lydia, when we started talking about bringing Mrs. Leglai in the studio. You said something very specific. That you're not going to hear these things again. Exactly, I hope mean, what is your perception out of this discussion?
[00:27:33] Speaker E: For me, I think you're very humble because although being a Greek, but now living in Greece for childhood years.
You are a leader. Because you're a female who has done so much work in Greece. The doors did not open for you right away. Right? Is it different for men and women in Greek?
[00:27:55] Speaker D: Yes, definitely.
[00:27:56] Speaker E: That's why I'm saying you're being humble. It was your strive, it was your parents.
[00:28:03] Speaker D: That's why I asked.
[00:28:04] Speaker E: The question was who supported you to get through all those difficulties?
Was your parents, was it school, was.
[00:28:12] Speaker C: It your friends or internal.
[00:28:18] Speaker D: Know? I can definitely say that some persons in my life made me make these decisions. Now, Lydia, I understand who these persons by your question. Not only my parents, I said, but it was specific persons that with their way of life, show me the way I want to live. But when I went through all this, I was alone and I still am. Okay. I cannot share it with nobody else because it's a very heavy thing. I can hide my feelings from my son. He's also very sensitive. I don't want to hear this, but he has empathy, which. Good. Yes.
[00:28:53] Speaker E: You're serving society for me.
[00:28:55] Speaker C: And what you said about leadership.
Leadership can be to yourself too. You can be a leader of your own self. And especially regarding our school. Because we're talking about conscious global citizens. You cannot be a conscious global citizen if you're not a leader, at least to yourself.
[00:29:15] Speaker D: Absolutely.
[00:29:16] Speaker C: Then you teach the others how to do the same. And then the leadership mentality translates to your deeds. And it makes sense. So I would like to thank you so much for being with us today.
I really think that this is a very important topic. Topic that should be discussed in classrooms with a lot of asterisks. But people who want to go towards this kind of profession and not even. I mean, you don't need to be a lawyer to help.
[00:29:53] Speaker E: You can volunteer.
[00:29:54] Speaker D: Are there ways.
[00:29:56] Speaker C: There are so many ways to help volunteer work, social work, definitely.
[00:30:01] Speaker D: I would never be a lawyer if I knew then what I wanted to do. I would study law. I would graduate from law school, but then I wouldn't be practicing law. I would do something different because this.
[00:30:12] Speaker C: Is what is important for everybody to understand. So thank you so much for being with us.
[00:30:17] Speaker D: Thank you very much.
[00:30:18] Speaker C: And thank you, Lydia, for introducing Ms. Gleglet to us.
[00:30:21] Speaker D: Absolutely.
[00:30:22] Speaker E: It's a pleasure. Thank you.
[00:30:24] Speaker D: Thank you.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: You are listening to the owlcast, the official podcast of ACS Athens. Make sure you subscribe to the owlcast on Google Podcasts, Spotify and Apple Podcasts. This has been a production of the ACS Athens Media studio.
