Episode Transcript
[00:00:09] Speaker A: This is the owlcast, the official podcast of ACS Athens.
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Check out what drives all the members of our international community of learners as we create the education of the future.
Here's John Papadakis.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: Welcome to the final episode of the third Owlcast season, a special president's edition featuring the distinguished Professor Nancy Snow. Doctor Snow is actively engaged as a public scholar, writer, and speaker on all things international relations, specifically persuasive and global communications. She earned her PhD in international relations from American University's School of International Service. As a faculty member, she helped advance graduate public diplomacy at the University of Southern California Annenberg School and Syracuse University Newhouse School. More recently, she served as the first full time public diplomacy professor in Japan with the title Pax Mundi World Peace Distinguished professor of public diplomacy at Kyoto University of Foreign Studies. She declares to be a strong advocate for person to person exchanges, having served as a Fulbright postgraduate scholar at the University of Freiburg in Germany, and she held a Fulbright Scholar visiting professorship at Sofia University in Japan and a Social Science Research Council Abbe fellowship at Keio University.
Doctor Nancy Snow is a Fulbright professor of public diplomacy at Pantheon University in Athens, a visiting scholar at the Institute of International Relations, and the lead author of Propaganda and Persuasion, now in its 8th edition with Sage. Her expertise in intercultural communications, peace and conflict resolution, and us foreign policy, particularly public diplomacy, makes her a fitting guest for this seasons finale. In this episode, among many other topics, we examine the evolving landscape of storytelling, particularly within academia. Professor Snow sheds light on the growing shift towards digital media platforms, driven by the need for speed and the diverse range of mediums and audiences now accessible. This digital transformation is not just a technological shift, but also a cultural one, impacting how stories are crafted, shared, and perceived across the globe. Living abroad as an american has profoundly influenced Professor Snow's perspectives. Her experiences have taught her the importance of viewing the world as a global citizen. She emphasizes the value of face to face exchanges of ideas, which she believes foster more sincere communication and integrity. These personal interactions are crucial in building mutual understanding, transcending cultural and national boundaries. Professor Snow also discusses her role as a communication catalyst at both state and local levels. Her work promotes mutual understanding and encourages curiosity as a vehicle for promoting diversity. She argues that diversity acts as a change agent, benefiting both professional growth and personal development. Her insights into how curiosity can drive engagement and learning are particularly timely in today's rapidly changing world.
Lastly, for aspiring Fulbright scholars, Professor Snow offers invaluable advice on pursuing scholarships. Her guidance is rooted in her extensive experience and deep understanding of the Fulbright program's goals. She highlights the importance of genuine curiosity, intercultural understanding, and the willingness to engage deeply with other cultures. Her advice is not just practical but also inspirational, encouraging future scholars to embrace the transformative potential of the Fulbright experience. Join us as we explore these themes and more with professors Nancy Snow and President Peggy Pelones, celebrating a season of insightful discussions and looking forward to future explorations in public diplomacy and global communication. Here's the host for this president's edition, Doctor Peggy Pelones.
[00:04:50] Speaker C: So, Nancy.
[00:04:51] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:04:51] Speaker C: Three time Fulbright Award recipient in Germany, Japan, and Greece. And currently you are here in Athens as a Fulbright visiting scholar at Pandion University and at the Institute of International Relations. Wow. So can you share your journey into the field of public diplomacy and what initially sparked your interest in this area?
[00:05:13] Speaker D: I have a PhD in international relations, and we had to choose concentrations in IR. And of course, IR is a subfield of political science. So my undergraduate degree was political science. I thought I would go to law school. When I got to the School of International Service, American University in Washington, DC, I chose international slash. Intercultural communication is one field, peace and conflict resolution is another, and us foreign policy is my third. Little did I know then that that was public diplomacy in many respects. Right out of graduate school, I worked for the State Department and the US Information agency in a program that still exists called the presidential management fellows. It's something that your students should know about should they have interest in going to the US, because it. It's a fast track to government management.
And it was while I was at USia that I could see the delineation between those in the foreign service and those in the civil service. I was on the civil service side.
Subsequently, I just started writing about public diplomacy. And my first book, Propaganda, Inc. Was about my experience working at USIA and Dos. And it has been published in three editions and also in about four or five languages. Very short book. But what it did was tell a story that nobody knew because USIA was directing our operations to overseas publics and not to the american people. So initially, it was the american public very interested. And then gradually, as other countries got involved in public diplomacy, they wanted to hear a little bit about how the approach the subject.
[00:07:09] Speaker C: Hmm. Okay. So as a faculty member of both USC and Syracuse University, how have you seen the field of public diplomacy evolve over the years?
[00:07:19] Speaker D: It's really gone digital. It's gone online. So storytelling has shifted to keep up with the new technologies. So when I was teaching it early on, we might have talked about press releases and person to person educational and cultural arts exchanges. But increasingly, increasingly, countries and embassies and ambassadors feel that pressure, representatives of countries to tell their story using the media platforms that appeal to younger people and across generations. So I saw that change when I went from USC Annenberg and Cal State Fullerton to Syracuse. It was 2008, and I was teaching to master's students in public diplomacy. And by then it was laptops, it was their smartphones. We were about a year into that with the iPhone, and they were doing things just rapid fire that we were not doing in the earlier days. So I think there's more pressure now to get a story out across different media platforms. I even feel that pressure when I travel, and I know people want to know what I'm doing and where I'm going. Sometimes I just want to take and have a phone conversation. But it's this rapidity, it's this rapid nature of communication. And yet, at the same time, I would emphasize this. Edward R. Murrow talked about the last 3ft, the last meter of exchange, person to person, like I'm having with you now, eyeball to eyeball. There's no substitute for that back and forth. And so I think we have to learn how to strike a balance.
[00:09:06] Speaker C: I completely agree with that. And I know that your work has taken you all over the world, including a pivotal role as the first public diplomacy professor in Japan. Right?
[00:09:17] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:09:18] Speaker C: Now, how has your international experience shaped your perspective on public diplomacy?
[00:09:23] Speaker D: It's changed everything about my life, but also about my perspective as an American living abroad. I'm no longer the one who sees it within the confines of the United States or vis a vis us foreign policy.
I really approach things more as a global citizen. We don't have a passport for that. But my outlook, when you look at the world as more of a global citizen, you have to open up your ears at two to one ratio, ears to mouth. So you have to really charge up active listening. And that's what I try to do in my writing because research is active listening and active observing. And so I've been blessed if I could use that word in that I have learned more over all these years. I've been living in Japan most of the time the last decade, and I've learned more probably than I've been able to give back, because in a way, it's like starting to learn all over again. You have to understand the cultural mores and the so much the nonverbals, because I don't speak Japanese much at all. I have getting around Japanese, but my purpose in Japan is to help the japanese government and also private actors communicate effectively with the outside world. And most of the outside world doesn't speak Japanese either.
[00:10:51] Speaker C: You said earlier, and you mentioned it again, you're a strong advocate for person to person exchanges. Yes. Can you explain a little more why these are so crucial in today's global communication platform landscape?
[00:11:06] Speaker D: And again, I began probably with how much they changed my life in that I came from the so called deep south. I mean, I grew up in a very homogenous environment.
I didn't really know diversity too much, and so, and yet I was curious about the world. And when I would meet somebody who was different from me, I always wanted to know, what was your growing up like? Tell me your story. And I found that I was very drawn to that. And so exchange is a vehicle for not only personal growth, but also that professional development. And frankly, I think that it is more likely to create a change agent in a person in that you see the commonalities that we have.
You also see the struggles, you see how media tend to emphasize the global north over the global south, and that we tell stories differently. And so I just really value that opportunity through exchange. And I'm always telling everybody I meet, don't just do what I say to do, but go and investigate and do the application. So recently I was able to talk to about 40 to 50 students about applying for Fulbright, and it was so exciting to hear their interest. And I said, I believe one person in this room, if not more, is going to get a Fulbright if I can just light a little bit of a fire under you to get excited about it. And don't give up if you don't get it the first time because it's like applying for any grant. You know, I've applied for grants and lost out, too, but you get back up and you do it again. So I'm glad that I'm known for person to person exchange because I want to keep modeling that behavior. And hopefully I'll have the ability to continue going on these exchanges as long as there's interest in what I have to teach and do research, and I'll keep going on exchanges.
[00:13:13] Speaker C: You know, I really like what you said because you're there in Japan, I mean, to help them learn how to communicate with the outside world, but you spend a lot of time learning as well. And so we talk about lifelong learning and active listening, and that sounds like it's definitely something that always has to be at the forefront. If you're not open to learning, then you can't really teach, can you?
[00:13:37] Speaker D: Very true. We tend to jump ahead. You know, we put the, what is it, the cart before the horse. You know, we don't really think it through about, you can't just go and advocate and say, well, we've got this goal and objective and we're just going to push it through. Because in terms of persuasion, people don't like to feel overwhelmed. They don't like to feel a sense of pushiness. So you have to approach your messaging. If you're the government, there's always some messaging, of course, that is coming from the prime minister, the president, the Ministry of Foreign affairs and other agencies. But you have to do it in a way where it's more dialogical, where it is more back and forth. What are the win win opportunities here? And you can't really fully understand that until you listen sometimes even to the grievances that the other side or the other sides involve, have. And that's difficult, especially, I think, coming from the United States, where we speak in a lot of declarative statements.
Given the power that we have, it's just naturally been part of us power in the world. But humbling yourself and being more humble about, I don't know, and can you teach me? I'd like to learn more. That is so flattering for someone to hear. Using someone's appropriate name where they come from is really honoring that other person in that partnership that you develop.
[00:15:10] Speaker C: I know a lot of people don't like to be told what to do because I think there's an internal assumption that it's a one upsmanship. I know better. I need to teach you. Whereas if it's a partnership, it's a completely different story.
So with your extensive experience advising various governments on strategic communication, what are some common challenges that they face in implementing effective public diplomacy?
[00:15:37] Speaker D: Well, some of these are that we get caught up in policies with which we might disagree. So when you're in strategic communications, you have to think about who's my client. I mean, there are times I do work with, with the NATO center of Excellence, and they have a journal, defense strategic communications journal. They're based in Riga, Latvia. Now, I'm not involved in NATO officially. It was Neville Bolt, my friend from Kings College, London, who heads up strategic communications there, who reached out to me when I was based in Japan, and I came and talked about Japan's approach to strategic communications. But I've had to subsequently really learn more then about what is the role of NATO, and how is this related to the expansion now of NATO? NATO went from nobody was really talking about NATO to all of a sudden in the last few years, everybody's talking about NATO. So this is then yet another opportunity, but also a challenge in that you have to kind of get on board and understand the history. And so I think with strategic communications, too, the second point would be different places in the world approach it differently. In some, it's strictly military and defense. In others, it is part and parcel of public diplomacy. So it's more integrated, and depending on how that country approaches it, you have to walk in and understand the landscape. And there are some institutional requirements that make it more integrated. In Japan, StraTCom is associated with the Ministry of Defense. And the reason for that is because in Japan, naturally due to its history, it's not a place where you're going to be very aware of the self defense forces there. You won't see people in uniform. It won't be like some other countries where it's more obvious. You don't even see the us forces. They're primarily in Okinawa. So it's sort of hidden from view. Not intentionally, but it is also part of being cognizant of how the Japanese view themselves in the world. And they view themselves through this prism of a peace brand. And so seeing too much militarization reminds them of their tragic past.
[00:18:06] Speaker C: Past, yeah.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: You are listening to the owlcast, the official podcast of ACS Athens.
[00:18:27] Speaker C: In your book, Propaganda and american diplomacy, it dwells into the complexities of propaganda. How do you distinguish between propaganda and public diplomacy?
[00:18:38] Speaker D: Propaganda is always, it's content, it's the sponsor, and it's always asymmetrical. Propaganda will benefit the sender of that content. It's not designed like the back and forth that we're having now is more sort of fair and balanced. There isn't this effort to kind of push through a message. So if you think of the communication exchange as asymmetrical, it's always going to favor the sponsor of the message. I also understand and acknowledge the contentious definition of propaganda. But to propagate is to spread, to disseminate. It is an agricultural, one way relationship. But, yeah, when you think of spreading seeds in a field that leave to flowers, you're spreading them one way, so you get information back, but it's always to the benefit. And it's along a continuum. I mean, in Brazil, they look at propaganda in the context of advertising, so it's seen as propagandistic. In that it favors the advertising sponsors. But not every piece of advertising is going to be terribly harmful. It's just that it became sort of a negative term after the war period. And before that it was used sort of interchangeably with public communication and public information. And if anybody's interested in going deeper into it, look at Walter Lippmann, Edward Bernays and many of those who were involved in the effort, the US in World War one and then of course World War two. And it was after World War two where it took on the more tainted version. But I think now we're recognizing in the context of fake news and disinformation and misinformation that we're living in a propaganda environment. So it's not a matter of if we can defeat it, it is part and parcel of who we are. So it's a matter of countering the worst aspects of propaganda. And in order to do that you have to study it, you have to study the motivations, the intentions.
[00:20:46] Speaker C: So and develop those critical thinking skills.
[00:20:49] Speaker D: Absolutely.
[00:20:51] Speaker C: Determine the difference.
[00:20:52] Speaker D: So my next book coming out is propaganda and persuasion, the 8th edition. That'll be out in the fall.
[00:20:59] Speaker C: All right, great, looking forward to that. You mentioned earlier Okinawa. And given your involvement with the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology and other advisory boards, how do you see the intersection of science, technology and public diplomacy evolving?
[00:21:15] Speaker D: This is a huge one for me because I'm the daughter of a rice MIT trained engineer and so it's very personal. And I was introduced to Oist on a journalism trip over ten years ago and my mind was blown because I'd never heard of Oist. I went back to Tokyo, told my friends about OIS. They didn't really know much about it, but it is sort of the MIT of Japan. It's set up for PhD students taught entirely in English. And these are some of the best minds, some of the best faculty in the world and it's this unsung gem. And oh by the way, it was funded by the japanese government. So this is very much part of the japanese approach to public diplomacy. So I've been advocating for Oys not as a trained engineer in the hard sciences, but rather I was there last spring working with their students and helping them to communicate what they do on different platforms through an op ed, through a tweet, whatever it may be, because they don't have time to do a lot of that. And so I became very excited in what they were doing in the lab and said, well how do you communicate this to a non specialist? So that's what I've been doing with OYs, but I'm very big on science and technology because it is also an area of common knowledge, common approach to problems in the world. We're dealing with climate change. I think it's pretty hot today here in Athens, and so we're recognizing the things that we increasingly have in common. And you can get beyond some of the heavier politics when you meet in a room and talk about using our science, technology, engineering, mathematics to resolve our global commons issues.
[00:23:04] Speaker C: Challenges. Yeah. And you have edited numerous or authored numerous handbooks on public diplomacy and propaganda. What key insights or trends have you observed in your recent publications? Say the one that's coming out now?
[00:23:19] Speaker D: Well, I would say to really take a look at broadcasting, I think you will look at countries like you look at China, and they are a leading country in broadcasting. They call it now voice of China. But it sort of happened in the last several years. And when I first went to China, to Tsinghua in 2007, yes, they had the CCTV, but they didn't have all of the TikTok and WeChat and Alipay. And now it's truly a digital economy, even at the level where somebody doesn't have great wealth. Everybody's online. And of course, when you're online, you can track that, you know, either the company or the government. So I'm recognizing then how public diplomacy, this is not your mother's public diplomacy or your grandfather's or ed Morrow's public diplomacy. We can take those insights from them, but we have to look at the larger landscape, and you cannot leave out the power of exchanges and the power of broadcasting. So I'm talking about government sponsored broadcasting. So in Japan, it's NHK. We know the role of the BBC, but there are numerous international broadcasters in countries that have taken the opportunity to be more visible. And they are using it by reaching more people online. They're doing it digitally because, of course, broadcasting now, it's so easy to upload material. So you have that and then you have the rise of the citizen diplomat. So I would encourage anybody listening, if you have something to say, look at your role as a citizen diplomat. And you can do that in a way where you don't have to take the combative approach.
The technology is neutral. It's what we do with the technology. You can either be combative and take on your trolls out there, or you can approach it in terms of, I'm going to have rules of engagement. I will have speakers on and we will set the rules. So that we will make the conversation part of a civic dialogue that is not going to be accusatory and finger pointing. So you can enact roles of citizen diplomacy using the technology that we have now.
[00:25:43] Speaker C: Yeah. I want to talk more about one of your other books, the battleship diplomat, the enduring soul of the mighty mo.
[00:25:51] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:25:52] Speaker C: This is a tribute to your father. Can you tell us about the inspiration behind this book and what readers can expect?
[00:25:58] Speaker D: Well, you're probably picking up that I talk a lot about my background. I grew up the only daughter, the youngest in a family with four older brothers. My dad was part of the so called silent generation. He never talked about not just World War two. He was not, he was too young for world War two, but he did go through naval training, naval officer training, and he ended up on the USS Missouri. So I would hear stories about his travel to the Mediterranean in the spring of 46 and especially returning or repatriating the turkish ambassadors remains to Istanbul. And I had pictures of my father there. I even found letters that were sent to him from pen pals. And I never forgot that I lost my dad in 2005. But as I've reached a certain level in my career, I can kind of pick and choose the topics that I want to write about. And it was also living in Japan because, of course, the USS Missouri is one of the most iconic ships in the world. It's where the Japanese surrendered on September 2, 1945. It was involved in the last year World War two, Battle of Okinawa and Iwo Jima all the way through the Gulf War, 1991, before it went into retirement. And it's now in Pearl harbor, sitting bow to bow with the Arizona, one of the most visited sites of japanese tourists in Hawaii. Who would know? So it's like a full circle. And I didn't want to write about the guns on board the ship or how long the bombs could travel. I want to write about the story, the soft power, the living museum. And I know there are thousands of stories out there, and I'm going to dig, and this is going to take me several years. So don't ask me when it's going to be published.
[00:27:56] Speaker C: Okay. But hopefully soon.
Now, in your Fulbright role here, you'll be teaching and conducting, or you have been teaching and conducting research at Pandyan University. What are the primary goals you hope to achieve, and have you achieved them and how do you plan to enhance the curriculum? International european studies?
[00:28:16] Speaker D: Listen, I got a quote. Karen Carpenter here, we've only just begun.
I've met some incredible faculty who've taught me about what's happening here on the ground vis a vis digital diplomacy, but also on gender and international relations. And I have a strong personal commitment to raising the visibility of women's voices in international relations. So as much as I've been able to make ties with even the co founder of Women act, I'm meeting with her May tomorrow. So it's trying to build this kind of multiplier effect, and I'm just one part of it. So it's really connecting with these great, brilliant, creative women here. And in the context of my field of international relations and public diplomacy. When I worked at USIA, it was mostly women staff, so it was very heavily gendered in terms of women, but the leadership remained male, white male, in fact. And so now I'd like to see more women in authority positions really speaking about security issues and human security and global security. And we often don't have enough of those voices at the table. The way you do that is, again, you mentor and you model that behavior. So I'm learning again from those I've met here. That's why I say it's just the beginning.
[00:29:45] Speaker C: So you'll definitely stay in touch, even though you need to.
[00:29:48] Speaker D: Yeah, I'm a gps.
[00:29:52] Speaker C: Now. Public diplomacy often involves navigating complex cultural dynamics, as you mentioned earlier, in relation to Japan. But obviously you've traveled extensively. And can you share a specific example where cultural understanding played a critical role in successful public diplomacy?
[00:30:11] Speaker D: Well, I mean, at a personal level or. Because I just remember my first trip to Malaysia, tell this story. And it wasn't really for public diplomacy. They knew my co editor, Phil Taylor from the UK, and this is back in 2013, but 2013 was just over a decade after 911. And I'll put this in the context of cultural sensitivity. When I arrived there, they had this sort of group of people, I had a photographer, it was this entourage. And they explained to me as we were walking through the airport, they said, we really appreciate your coming to Malaysia. And I said, but of course, I've never been here. I'm so excited to be here. And they said, well, many western academics won't come here. And it was because there was this sort of fixation on a muslim country after 911, you know, the global war on terror and all that. And I never really even thought about that. And I went and spent a week at UiTM, which is Bhumiputra, all native Malays, and I learned so much. And the last day I was there, they must have had 80 students, and each one of them had to ask me a question, and I was the only one up front. It was like this, you know, being on the hot seat. But I wish I had a recording of it because it was so eye opening. It was coming from a position of curiosity, love, appreciation. And I've never forgotten that. I haven't even been back to Malaysia. But it was that experience of the gratitude they showed me. And you never know. Sometimes you walk into these situations and you don't know that you're making an impression that will be lasting. They left a lasting impression on me. And I suppose in a small way, I left an impression on them because it was just the act of going there. And that is related to public diplomacy as well. It is our actions, it is our behaviors, it is a process, a daily process, and you have missteps along the way, but it is that constant learning and relearning and also recognizing your ignorance. What you don't know, I want to.
[00:32:33] Speaker C: Go back a little bit to what you mentioned earlier, fake news and propaganda. And you said, how do you see the role of public diplomacy changing in the context of digital and social media, especially with the rise of misinformation and disinformation?
[00:32:49] Speaker D: It's a real tough one, because I can recall when this is over ten years ago, I did a talk for the us embassy in Tokyo at the Apple store. Maybe it was 2010, and not only that, but I did a brown bag lunch with their employees talking about how to use Twitter at that time, how to use the digital media. And I can recall the staff saying, we don't know how to do this. And we also feel reluctant because we're working for the government. We don't, we're not used to going out there on our own or putting our name on things. And I think that with misinformation and disinformation, it's really somewhat kind of clouding what it is we do in public diplomacy. I know you have to address that, but I think the way to take on the misinformation is very gradual. It's not going to, you're not going to erase it. You can't just take down everything depending on the country with free speech protections. Certain other countries can do that. But I've heard about fake news even on that Malaysia trip. But it was in the context of their local elections, you know, in their state and their country wide elections. So one researcher I heard recently, and he's based in the United States, he actually, his take is to go approach misinformation, disinformation as an industry and he started interviewing people who took it on as a job. He would talk to them anonymously, and they had no connection to the trolling. It was just a way to get a job for them. And so he said, unless you can take away that market incentive, this is going to be a lot of whack a mole, you know, where you're trying to put it out here, and the industry starts up somewhere else. So in a way, we've created kind of this monster online, and so now it's trying to control that monster. But let's not give up on each other in terms of talking to one another, even when we disagree. And there are always going to be moments where you agree to disagree because we have our fixed points, you know, and this is what we get into in the propaganda and persuasion book. There are those attitudes and values that are fixed. And so then it becomes a matter of if we agree to disagree, let's try to turn down some of the vitriol and the volume of just trying to kind of outdo each other and zingers back and forth. I've seen in my lifetime kind of this growth of sort of a crudeness online. And that's why I have kind of a love hate relationship with a lot of the material online. And I know that teachers go through that, too, and professors, you don't know how to really navigate that. But I do think that you've got to work on how do you build trust, and how do you build trust in the context of an environment where we don't agree with each other? We often have strong disagreements, but we have to live together and figure out ways that we can avoid being annoyances or engaging in and angry or even sometimes violent exchanges. And the media has a strong responsibility here, too, because our eyeballs are drawn. We get addicted to things. You know, we used to talk about rubbernecking when you go by a car crash. That's just natural human instinct, that something that's exceptional and sensational you're drawn to. Yeah.
[00:36:40] Speaker C: You know, Nancy, there's never enough time. And really, you know, thank you for all the knowledge and information that you brought to the table here today and generally with your work. One final question. As a professor emeritus and someone deeply involved in academic and practical facets of public diplomacy, what advice would you give to young scholars and practitioners entering this field today?
[00:37:05] Speaker D: I would give them the advice that they should, as much as possible, do internships both inside government, do it in the private sector, and don't just write about the field, but become part of it and also offer what you're learning. You'd be surprised. I mean, there are grants available increasingly at embassies, and so you can look into research grants, but also the people inside are often talking to their counterparts, and they don't hear enough from young people who really want to make a difference. So everybody, if I get a tweet or if I get an email from someone thanking me for my scholarship, it makes my day. And the same thing works for that CEO of that company or that ambassador or that public diplomacy czar, if you will. Start that dialogue, have that conversation, and you never know where it may lead. It may be something. Hey, we've got the next three months. We could use some help in the office. So my encouragement is to take the initiative. Don't be a sort of onlooker, but really get involved, and you will never have a dull moment because there's just so much out there to keep learning from.
[00:38:27] Speaker C: Yeah, and keep learning. That's the idea. Keep open.
[00:38:29] Speaker D: Live the questions. Live the questions.
[00:38:31] Speaker C: Stay curious. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been an absolutely pleasure.
[00:38:36] Speaker D: Thank you. An honor for me, too.
[00:38:41] Speaker A: You are listening to the owlcast, the official podcast of ACS Athens. Make sure you subscribe to the Allcast on Google Podcast, Spotify and Apple Podcasts. This has been a production of the ACS Athens Media studio.
