Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: This is the Owlcast, the official podcast of ACS Athens.
Listen to the exciting story of the American community schools of Athens.
Check out what drives all the members of our international community of learners as we create the education of the future.
Here's. John Papadakis.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: Dignity builds strength and character. Dignity builds self worth. Our collective well being depends on grounding our thoughts and actions in the power of dignity to transform our lives.
These are the words of Rosalind Wiseman, author, speaker and guest of ACS Athens, who visited our campus a few days ago. Her book Queen Bees and Wannabes inspired the movie Mean Girls. Rosalind Wiseman is an internationally renowned author and educator on children, teens, parenting, bullying, social justice and ethical leadership. She was invited to talk to our students and faculty on issues that touch upon the growing pains facing families, the tough discussions when emotional trauma is evident, and the dynamics of family and friends, especially in the era of social media, self awareness and empowerment. Rosalind Wiseman was joined in the studio by Elliot, Lincoln and Mario's, three academy students. Together, we discussed connecting with young people in their language and communication modes, the benefit of not sugarcoating a different opinion.
How does a community come together? By creating a co agreement, the efforts of schools to strengthen students emotional intelligence and realizing the diverse ways young people develop resilience through learning.
[00:02:15] Speaker C: Your work covers a wide range of topics related to young people, from bullying to social dynamics. What initially drew you to focus on these issues? And how have your interests evolved through the years?
[00:02:28] Speaker D: I initially started working in schools when I had just graduated from college, and we didn't really have a name for it at the time, that it's now called social emotional learning. But I just was really focused on noticing, and I remembered as a high school person, that often we would get life advice, but people would not ask what our lives were like first. And I felt that it was incredibly important to ask young people what their lives were like before I gave advice. And so I started teaching and young people started telling me what I was doing that I needed to change. And truly, that's never changed as I keep doing that and I keep trying to figure out what are the things that young people need and also what they don't need. And I think one of the most important parts is how are we coming across to them and listening to them so we can communicate with them in a way that they feel respected and acknowledged.
[00:03:28] Speaker C: So we have the three students here with us. Did you feel connected? Did you feel that you communicated through these days?
[00:03:37] Speaker D: Oh my gosh, I don't know. You're putting them on the spot too. What if they didn't feel that way? If I did not reach you, if I did a bad job, you should be able to say or give me advice more is like, what I could have done better?
I don't know. We should absolutely turn it over to them.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: Yes, let's hear.
[00:03:56] Speaker E: Well, for me, I did feel as though it did connect in a lot of different ways, particularly with the incorporation of discussion about social media and things that are very modern into it. I feel like you managed to sort of capture that even a little bit, which is something that I guess is hard to do or seemingly hard to do for a majority of adults and speakers and things like that. So I felt that especially in that aspect, you did a very good job.
[00:04:24] Speaker F: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. I think it was very well done. It's clear there's maybe not even research, but just experience behind the things that kids do nowadays.
It felt like you've also, to some extent, experienced it, even as an adult. So it made it much clearer that you were understanding. To some extent, I felt pretty connected, and I think a lot of what you said was just very genuine or kind of actually what we experience and not just what adults see us experience.
[00:05:01] Speaker D: Thank you.
[00:05:02] Speaker E: I got the impression that there was a lot of discussions with young people behind the things that you were presenting.
[00:05:07] Speaker G: Well, I felt that you tried to help us by understanding us. And I think that this tactic of yours to get your work critiqued by your target audience is very smart.
[00:05:22] Speaker D: How'd you all feel about when I was talking about the lamborghinis in that audience?
[00:05:26] Speaker F: That was funny. I enjoyed that because it was people.
[00:05:30] Speaker D: Everybody knew what I was talking about, right?
[00:05:32] Speaker F: Yeah. I mean, that's like a prominent part of current social media. Everything happening with Andrew Tate and this and that.
[00:05:40] Speaker D: People were laughing.
[00:05:42] Speaker F: No, it was the whole place started laughing.
[00:05:44] Speaker D: I was like, okay.
[00:05:46] Speaker F: Because a lot of people are very aware of the issue behind that. And the dynamics behind was like it was almost like a call out to some.
[00:05:56] Speaker E: I I felt that that was maybe my favorite part of the talk, was that because it is something that a lot of people do, try to talk about Andrew Tate, but don't really touch on just how ridiculous it all is, because it is ridiculous. And I feel like that's kind of the main reason almost why I don't like him is that there's something so utterly superficial and stupid about the way that he presents himself and the following that he's cultivated. And I just think it's silly.
[00:06:25] Speaker D: Well, I would say, though, he can make very powerful arguments when you listen to his instagram. I listen. I do. I watch and I listen, and he can make incredibly powerful arguments that out of context. I can see people saying, yeah, he speaks for me. So I do want to say that if we're speaking about him specifically, I've watched a lot of his videos, and to a certain extent, I really do get it.
[00:06:51] Speaker E: Well, that's what I think makes him so intoxicating to a lot of people, is that he does touch on genuine issues and problems, particularly with the male community, that I feel like need a solution. But I think that the way that he touches on those is with kind of outdated thoughts on it that just isn't helpful in the modern area and kind of need to be thrown out.
[00:07:16] Speaker G: Well, I think he addressed a lot of issues, and some of the stuff he says, they're right, but he angled the best way of saying them.
[00:07:28] Speaker C: So you came to see us here at ACS. Could you tell us a little bit more about your visit? What were your thoughts as you were preparing to come and address this community? Apparently, you haven't been here before, correct?
[00:07:40] Speaker D: I have not been here before.
[00:07:42] Speaker C: So how did you prepare yourself?
[00:07:44] Speaker D: Well, I got here, the visit was we didn't have a lot of time to plan. So I usually actually meet with students virtually before I get on campus.
But because of my schedule, I got here and I did the small listening group. So I always listen to students in small groups before I create the presentations and decide what I'm going to do. So I met with a group of middle school people, and I met with a group of high school people, of academy people, and that started helping me design the program. And then the next day, I did two hour leadership program with the middle school people to our leadership programs with the high school people, did a middle school assembly, faculty assembly, and I just did the academy assembly.
But really, the very beginning of it is really always about listening to the students in these small groups and also having them fill out the forms that I asked them to fill out a few questions. They're pretty deep questions, and they responded very intensely. I read there were about 200 of them that responded, and I read them.
[00:08:52] Speaker C: Through your interactions with the students, but also with faculty, you must have observed some common issues, challenges, if not concerns. Can you talk to us a little bit about these interactions? How do you approach a difficult conversation that may involve complex emotions, how to deal with these emotions?
[00:09:13] Speaker D: There's two things I would say, and then I'm going to turn it over to the students. One is that I got a tremendous amount of feedback from students that they appreciated that I was direct, that I did not sugarcoat things that I just said. This is what I think is going on. And also, you can disagree with me. I want you, if you have a different opinion, to tell me. And I got a tremendous amount of appreciation for that.
So that's the first thing. And then the second thing is that young people I just had a student stop me in the hall and thank me because she needed a definition of the difference between a healthy friendship and a toxic friendship. So these are all very normal, common things to be experiencing, but they're complex and they're difficult and they contribute to who we are and how we develop. They're important experiences for young people. So that's the feedback that I've gotten.
[00:10:10] Speaker E: I guess I just wanted to ask, in recent years there's been like a lot of press about newer school systems that have been put in place in different countries like Finland. Finland is kind of the primary example. Do you have any thoughts on those? Because as far as I've seen, they've been very progressive in how they incorporate new psychology on young people and things like that.
[00:10:33] Speaker D: I think that there are always new ways and new kinds of schools that are coming up. And my experience over the years is that no matter what, they have similar challenges. The foundation of it is how are they going to create co agreements with the students and are they even going to think that way about how do we create co agreements, essential agreements with the students about how we are going to be and we means what is the essential agreement? Or Portrait of a Student what is the essential agreement about being a teacher, a board member, a parent? So that everybody has very clear expectations that we have all co created about how we're going to be as members of the community. And I tend to think that no matter what style of school, that if you don't focus on those things, you're going to have the same problems that every school has. It's going to come back to that. There's just always been so many new kinds of schools and I want there to be a real reflection of where young people are. And the more we can do that and the more we can bring them into the process. So it's not just them receiving information, and then they have to memorize it, and then they have to give it back and then forget about it the next day, for example. The more they actually are able to learn and become engaged people, that, to me, is what a school should be about.
[00:11:58] Speaker C: Well, this is a discussion we have about these different educational systems because especially in Finland, it's not a new model. We're talking about the last 30 years at least, that they're building. It has to do with the pressure that the students and the children are facing and they are feeling based on what they do in that particular system. So I guess a more liberal system like the Finnish one, that's what I guess the difference might have been in this. But I would like to focus a little bit on the issue of emotional intelligence. This is something that has been at the forefront for a few years, especially regarding the culture of open communication. Many schools efforts to foster among students and faculty, especially in times of crisis. What are your thoughts on these efforts? What is the significance and the impact?
[00:12:48] Speaker D: I think that sometimes get to a place in schools where our teaching about emotions is seen as being a weakness or an add on, but it's actually fundamental to how a young person experiences learning and how they develop resilience. But at the same time and again, I would turn to the students to ask you, it's important to be able to work with them to create the programs around this that feels realistic to them. And I think we've got to be humble. Adults have to be humble about being able to say, okay, where are we not being realistic and where are we not being relevant? And can we change and work with you to make it that way? Emotions are just they're part of our school, whether we like it or not.
And the more we avoid it, the more actually power they have. So it's just really important to be able to work with young people. But the only way that's going to work otherwise it's going to be superficial and they're not going to take it seriously, is we have to work with them to create what does it look like that you're going to take seriously?
[00:13:52] Speaker C: So what are your thoughts?
[00:13:54] Speaker F: So, from my perspective as a student, I see that a lot of obviously young people are going to struggle with emotional intelligence and kind of the self awareness and the awareness of others. And I think that's a big portion of what leads to bullying in schools. And bullying obviously has a ton of negative effects that are detrimental to a student's actual school work, but also to their mental health. I think emotional intelligence is a really important thing.
[00:14:25] Speaker C: So if you had any idea or suggestion or proposal to say how to improve emotional intelligence in the school I'm talking about in general, I think that.
[00:14:35] Speaker F: A big thing is just how, when in kindergarten you learn, oh, you keep your hands to yourself, you don't touch others without permission, things like that.
At least I think more of it kind of needs to be put in place besides just, oh, don't touch other people, because people want to know, like, oh, why is this upsetting? Why is this and this? And I think one thing is a lot of people are bound to disagree in schools because it's a diverse place. And I think having some sort of way to openly mitigate an argument, have someone in the middle to kind of make it clear that this is what you're saying and this is what you're saying, but this isn't a personal thing because I think a lack of understanding of emotions and emotional intelligence is just not a good thing to have.
[00:15:34] Speaker A: You are listening to The Owlcast, the official podcast of ACS Athens.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: Today we are talking with Rosalind Wiseman, best selling author, educator on children, teens and ethical leadership. Stay with us as we discuss the right ways for parents to engage in an argument with their children. And all about Mean Girls, the movie that was inspired by Rosalind Wiseman's book Queen Bees and Wannabes Mean Girl tropes and world politics.
[00:16:13] Speaker C: So how about empathy? How can somebody be a player in resolving conflicts and healing emotional wounds within the school community? What are your thoughts on this?
[00:16:24] Speaker D: I think empathy is super tricky because kids don't like to hear about it.
Am I right? Yeah.
I think it's one of those words that adults feel like, yeah, we need to teach empathy. And the kids are like, don't talk to me, lecture me about empathy.
[00:16:38] Speaker F: It's because they push it all the time, but not in a way that the students are wanting to hear because.
[00:16:44] Speaker C: It'S just how do you understand it?
[00:16:46] Speaker F: So there's sympathy and empathy and I think a big thing is to not be sympathetic, but to be empathetic, because sympathy is like feeling pity for someone. And so I try at least to really push myself to be empathetic of people and to try to understand their situation or why they're this way or that way. And obviously I'm not going to be able to do that all the time, which is why I will ask and why I think it's important to ask like, why are you doing this? Why is this like this? But I don't think enough people are empathetic and I think not enough people kind of understand the actual definition of.
[00:17:28] Speaker C: Empathy and maybe describing it a little bit more in the school. That could be understandable, that could be something that can happen. So can you share some tips or tools that educators and parents can use to help children and teenagers better understand and manage their emotions that sometimes reach a boiling point at that age within the school community but also at home?
[00:17:53] Speaker D: I think the most important thing is that a parent needs to manage themselves, and by managing themselves, that they are role modeling basically what the structure is of how to have difficult conversations. So there's something called emotional hijacking where you get to a place where you start fast thinking because you're just overwhelmed by the emotions that you're having in the moment. And parents can be emotionally hijacked easily by when they're worried about their kid or when they're frustrated with their child. And so the more a parent can say, like if they're getting into a heated if a parent is getting into a heated argument with a child, to be able to say, to be able to notice and be mindful and present of like, I am actually losing my ability to manage myself in this moment. And I often have said to my own children when I get frustrated with them, I cannot talk to you at this moment. I need to talk to you in like a half an hour, because right now, nothing I'm going to say right now is going to be helpful. So I am going to take a pause and I'm going to come back. Is a half an hour good for you? Does that work for you? Because I can't do this right now.
And I think me saying, nothing I'm going to do right now is going to help the situation. I'm just going to irritate you more. I'm going to annoy you more. You're not going to listen. I'm not going to listen. So we just need to stop right now and then schedule another time to talk and have that pretty quickly. That's the first thing. The second thing is on the other side is if a child comes to you with a problem, I think there's this just compulsion by parents to want to fix the problem and also to ask a million questions like, well, where were you? Well, what happened? Well, how did that happen? What did you say? What did the teacher say? What did the kids say? And it's an overwhelming amount of questions. And I think that parents need to slow down. And when their child comes to them with a problem, that they say three things. They say, thank you for telling me, because it's trust to tell a parent, because they could go and send an email and tell other parents, and then it gets into this big old thing with other people, and then it makes it worse. One of the things I want parents to realize is it's complicated when children tell you problems. It's very complicated decision for a student for a child to tell their parent when they're having a problem. And it doesn't mean that they don't love the parent. It doesn't mean the parent's a bad parent. It doesn't mean that. It means it's complicated. And they're making a lot of very complicated decisions when they tell you a problem. And most young people I know are telling their parents a problem because they just want to get it to share their feelings. They don't want the parent to do anything.
For parents to be able to say, thank you for telling me. I'm so sorry that happened to you. And together we're going to think this through about how to make this better for you so you have more control. I think that's one of the most important things that parents can say.
[00:20:53] Speaker C: This is really important because I've heard cases of children that after they become adults, they go back to parents and they say, I wish I had talked to you about it at the time that that happened. So being able to express it, it's a feat on its own.
So you have concluded your visit to our school. You're on your way to the airport. Could you pick one or two highlights or anecdotes or stories that you have heard during these few days? That made you either rethink or validate what is your own story?
[00:21:35] Speaker D: I mean, the thing that I did about Andrew Tate was pretty like where everybody starts to laugh and a lot of the guys I saw a lot of guys like could you briefly discuss describe this? Could you briefly basically what I said was if you think that it is a good investment of your time and your financial future to think that and you're getting on your feeds lamborghinis and Bugattis and hennessy and you think that is a way to be a man and that somebody is hitting you up for 49 99 a month for you to subscribe to how to Be a man. That is absurd. And you cannot be this insecure. And it was like a thousand it was like the whole place just erupted. I think it was the hennessy in particular. Am I wrong about that? When I said henny, which I don't that I'm very aware of words that are my words that I would use normally and words that know are just too sort of slang. But I do use the word henny for hennessy because I also happen to am the mother of two boys, two young men that are 20 and 22. So that has been in our lives for a long time.
So that was a big moment of just the eruption of the feeling in the room when I'm talking about you don't have to be this insecure. So that was something that was with a group, though, that was with the academy. And then, I mean, the thing that happened that was really funny is that when I was meeting with the middle school kids and they didn't know why I was there and one, I said, do you know why I'm here? And one of the 7th graders said, Rehab. Are we here for rehab?
Right?
And then all of a sudden I thought, well, okay, actually that sort of makes sense. But it was one of the funniest things.
[00:23:35] Speaker C: There is an explanation for it. There is an explanation because we had a group that were talking to kids about addictions and alcoholism.
[00:23:43] Speaker D: No, but this was before all that. That was before all that. It was the first meeting I had. Interesting rehab. Okay, I think I'm going to put that on my like, what do I do? Emotional rehab. The title of your having a 7th grade boy say to me, I'm here for rehab. It's like, okay.
[00:24:02] Speaker E: If I could maybe ask one final question, I wanted to ask Mean Girls. Do you feel that the movie and the other parts of media that's come from Mean Girls has done a good job of portraying what it's trying to portray and also the things that you wrote about in the book that inspired it?
[00:24:20] Speaker D: I think some of the memes, Mean Girl memes are really funny.
Usually around political summits, like when all the presidents, like the G seven or G nine or whatever and they get together and Meme girl memes proliferate are very popular around these big political summits and I really of all the things like those, the best because I see power and politics no matter how old people are. What I see in a kindergarten group of people, I see amongst military leaders like how they line up, for example, at these big political meetings, it is Mean girls and it is the way that I look at the world and it is the way that I describe it. So when I see Mean Girl memes around those kinds of political summits that always makes me really happy because I'm a political theorist by training. That is what my love academic love is and it is the way I see the world is how do groups operate and how do individuals operate within groups. So for me, what just amazes me in answer to your question is the power of the tropes of Mean Girls just keeps going and it is amazing to me. I mean really it is astounding to me how powerful it is. And it's a little bit like this thing that I've created that has gone so beyond me that it's its own monolith and it's really quite bizarre actually to watch it. It's like having a child grow up and I don't know what just go way beyond what was possible. And then I remember the days that I was writing it and would I ever have known, never ever would I have known that what I was going to write was something that would resonate with people like this.
[00:26:13] Speaker E: It's definitely a very lasting piece of media.
[00:26:16] Speaker D: It is, yes, it is. For better and for worse.
[00:26:21] Speaker F: I actually have a question. I don't know if we have the time, but I was going to say you've said you've rewritten the book that inspired it multiple times now and I was just wondering are the rewrites because of how social dynamics change or is it because you just see more things you want to add?
[00:26:38] Speaker D: Well, I get feedback from young people that I need to change things and I look at what they're saying and they're right. So I need to change it, I need to adapt it. The social dynamics for the most part have not changed. People need to be in relationship with each other in similar ways but the ways in which that happens or doesn't has changed obviously because of social media but the motivations have not. And I also, of course, need to when I first started the understandings of, I created a taxonomy, a labeling of people's behavior, that I wanted people to be able to look at their own behavior and identify, for better and for worse and say, this is what I'm doing. And so how do I do it differently if it's not serving me? But at the same time, labeling is very tricky because labeling can be empowering and it also can be confining. And so I'm always looking at how to create wording and words and definitions that help people and empower people and do not constrain them and put them in further boxes. And that's what I keep working on over the iterations of queen bees and wannabe thank you.
[00:27:45] Speaker C: That's a very interesting question and I think that in a future podcast we can talk about the first and the latest edition and compare.
[00:27:54] Speaker D: Absolutely.
[00:27:55] Speaker C: Rosalind Wiseman, thank you so much for being with us.
[00:27:58] Speaker D: Thanks for having me.
[00:27:59] Speaker C: Thank you to the students who participated and we hope we see you soon.
[00:28:02] Speaker D: Again, thank you so much for having us.
[00:28:04] Speaker F: Thank you.
[00:28:07] Speaker A: You are listening to The Owlcast, the official podcast of ACS Athens. Make sure you subscribe to the Owlcast on Google Podcasts. Spotify and Apple podcasts. This has been a production of the AC. S Athens Media Studio.
